You’ve booked a fantastic guest on your show. They give a great interview, and you’re super excited. You check your episode downloads: they’re strong. You’re feeling good. Then you look at the consumption rate and your heart sinks. It’s under 60%. So, what happened?

Of all the listener stats on the menu, we know that consumption rate might be one of the more worthy ones to obsess over. It’s an indicator of how much of the episode your listeners get through, and thus how engaged they are. Typically, a consumption rate of 70 to 80% is considered healthy, and suggests that your content is consistently compelling enough for them to eat up almost every last morsel. But even the most popular interview-based shows can struggle with retaining their audiences beyond a 65% consumption rate. 

So, if downloads are strong, but consumption is weak, what’s the problem?

The Third Act Flail

Before leaping into podcasts, I spent a bunch of years working in documentary film. I made them, but I also programmed them for a film festival, and after screening countless documentaries, something started to stand out. My fellow programmers and I noticed that even the most accomplished directors tackling the most captivating subject matter could fall victim to the third (or, depending on the film, the 4th) act flail. What does that mean?

In typical storytelling, once the central challenge has been presented and worked through in acts 1 and 2, the story starts to resolve. In a traditional story, there may be a character arc where something has changed for the hero. But with documentary – and the real world in general –  an exciting twist, or a satisfying resolution doesn’t always present itself, and a director is left with the difficult task of concluding a story that might not be over, or that doesn’t jive with the narrative it started out with. Sometimes, this can feel like a story is just…trailing off, and that’s when the audience might too. 

Some podcast interviews can suffer a similar fate. The good news is that there are at least a few things that you can do about that.

Introduce New Conflicts

In fictional films, third acts are ripe with opportunity. In romance stories, for example, the third-act breakup is a commonly used device where the couple’s love story is tested by a conflict (and usually a breakup) in act 3. It’s that introduction of a new challenge, or a test of what we think we know, that keeps audiences on their toes and invested until the end.  The same can be applied to an interview. Pulling in a challenge to the topics discussed so far, or introducing a twist on what’s been learned, can keep listeners engaged. 

Offer a pay off

Offering your listeners the answer to a provocative question or a brand new angle on an old subject is a handy tease to pull them along. You need to give them a tantalizing value proposition, but you also have to make sure they can find it. 

Some interviews string listeners along in a lengthy conversation, and if it goes on too long with no payoff in sight, it might feel aimless. They need to feel like they’re taking steps up a ladder to learning something new. Sign-posting those steps can help orient the listener in the conversation and tease a new angle that’s coming. If it’s a straightforward conversational episode, you can still show the audience that you’re building to something important that they won’t get unless they stay. 

Tell a Great Story

It’s simple, but it’s true. Make sure the guest has a story to tell, and then help them tell it well. Lots of people have something really valuable to say, but it can get lost in digressions and other distractions. Think of even the most complicated subject matter as a story and help guests simplify how they tell it: ask simple questions, structured in a series of natural plot points.

Ultimately, if you’ve got a good story, with lots of delicious bread crumbs leading your listener through it, they’ll want to know how it ends, and they’ll stick with you until they find out.